Roger Ver
CEO of Bitcoin.com
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Host：Roger，您好。歡迎您的到來！
首先我來介紹一下Sandy,她是今天的主持人。Sandy Peng是裂變資本Fission Capital的合夥人。裂變資本是香港的一家區塊鏈創新投資平臺。Sandy 還是BC Group（HK.863）的高階顧問。是香港主機板上第一家面向Blockchain公司的上市機構，在亞洲擁有首個完全保險的託管解決方案。香港資產管理公司BC Group是香港第一家以區塊鏈為物件的公司，推出亞洲首個數字資產保險託管服務。
Hello Roger! Thank you for coming here!
I want to introduce Sandy, today host. Sandy Peng is Partner at Fission Capital. A HK based Blockchain innovation platform that invests and builds. Senior Advisor to BC Group (HK.863), the first listed institutional facing Blockchain company on the HK main board, with the first fully insured custody solution in Asia.
Sandy：Roger，您好，我是今天的主持人，我們期待能更多的瞭解您，我想我們會聽到很有趣的故事。
Hi Roger, I'm your interviewer for today. We look forward to hearing about your time in the industry, and interesting stories along the way.
Roger：謝謝，我也很希望能分享很多東西。
Thank you for hosting!
Sandy：我相信Roger不用我介紹大家都也非常瞭解。他是最早了解比特幣的知名人士，是早期比特幣接受者、狂熱的倡導者、企業家和投資者。他最有名的成就包括Bitcoin.com，BCH的支持者等。我迫不及待地想要開始了。
I think Roger needs no introduction. He is by far the most well known person in the early Bitcoin space. An early adopter, and avid advocate, an entrepreneur and an investor. His most famous accomplishments include Bitcoin.com, Supporter of BCH, and many more. So I can’t wait to get started.
2013年，我在Youtube上首次瞭解了比特幣相關知識。您的影片非常簡單明瞭的介紹的中本村（Satoshi）的思想。不過，現在比特幣家族要複雜得多，如果你有30秒時間向今天的行業新人解釋比特幣，你會怎麼說？
When I first read about Bitcoin in 2013, I went on Youtube, and your videos were the most simple and succinct version of Satoshi’s Vision for me (Excuse the pun). Now the Bitcoin family is much more complicated, if you had 30 seconds to explain Bitcoin to someone new to the industry today, what would you say?
Roger：我要說的和以前也是一樣的，只不過把比特幣改為比特幣現金。比特幣現金能允許世界上任何地方的任何人即時向任何人轉賬或接收任何金額的資金，無手續費，並且沒有任何人可以做任何事情來阻止它。
I would give the same speech today, but change the word Bitcoin to Bitcoin Cash. Bitcoin Cash allows anyone, anywhere in the world to send or receive any amount of money with anyone else, instantly, basically for free, and there is nothing that anyone can do to stop it.
Sandy：這是一個很好的答案。但在今天的加密貨幣生態中，似乎有很多代幣可以讓你實現這一點。為什麼您只說比特幣現金呢？
That's a great answer. But in today's crypto landscape, it seems like there are a lot of tokens that claim to allow you to do that. Why Bitcoin Cash?
Roger：我是所有能夠成為P2P電子現金的代幣的忠實粉絲。比如有一些很好的例子，如Dash，Zcash，Zcoin等。
I'm a fan of all the tokens that work as peer to peer electronic cash. Some other great examples are Dash, Zcash, Zcoin, etc...
Sandy：如果有人完全不瞭解過去幾年發生的事情，您如何解釋分叉的發生？當時有什麼重大的辯論嗎？
If someone completely missed what happened in the last few years, how would you explain why the original fork happened? What were some of the major debates at play then?
Roger：有很多事情發生，足以寫一本關於這個主題的書。不過簡短的總結是：一部分人並不認為比特幣應該是原始白皮書中描述的點對點的電子現金系統。相反，他們希望它只是“價值儲存”。他們成功地控制了英語口語討論平臺，並利用審查制度、禁止任何有不同觀點的人使用比特幣的BTC版本，並阻礙加密貨幣在全球範圍內的應用。我很難過看到他們以這種方式阻礙比特幣社羣的成長，直到今天，仍有很多生態系統的新使用者被審查制度所誤導。
That is a lot to cover. A whole book could be written on the topic, but a short summary is: One group of people didn't think Bitcoin should be a peer to peer electronic cash system as described in the original white paper. Instead they wanted it to be used only as a "store of value". They successfully took over the English speaking discussion platforms and used censorship and banning of anyone with a different point of view to hijack the BTC version of Bitcoin and delay the adoption of crypto CURRENCIES around the world. It breaks my heart to have watched the Bitcoin community be hijacked in this way, and new users to the ecosystem are still being deceived by the censorship to this very day.
Sandy：哇，這是一個非常有個性的觀點。 謝謝您的分享！
我想問一下您說的“審查制度”具體指什麼呢？想跟多的瞭解你提到的辯論。一方認為應該保留比特幣，而另一方認為應該花費比特幣。
Wow, that is a very strong view. Thank you for sharing.
I would love to ask more about what you mean by "censorship", but I want to stay focused on the scaling debate I think you alluded to. One side believes Bitcoin Should be kept, and one side believes Bitcoin should be spent.
Roger：如果BTC不是一個“個人和個人的電子現金系統，那它就不是比特幣。如果大家想要更多瞭解“審查制度”，大家可以點選以下連結：
If BTC isn't a "peer to peer electronic cash system" then it isn't Bitcoin.
If people want to read more about the censorship, there are some good summaries here:
https://medium.com/@johnblocke/a-brief-and-incomplete-history-of-censorship-in-r-bitcoin-c85a290fe43
Sandy：“貨幣流通速度”的概念也很有意思。您是否相信“消費或者使用的越多越好“，為什麼呢？
The concept of "velocity of money" is an interesting one. So you are on the side that believes the more "spending/ usage" the better? why is that?
Roger：我認為人們想要保留比特幣的唯一原因是，認為自己有能力以後花費比特幣。如果你做到那你就不用花費比特幣，也沒有任何理由保留比特幣。
我不認為人們需要花費他們持有的加密貨幣，但為了想要持有他們的加密貨幣，當他們想要的時候，他們需要有能力去花。如果它不可花費，那也就沒有任何理由持有它了。
I think that the only reason people would want to keep Bitcoin is if they know that they have the ability to spend it later. If you make it so you can't spend Bitcoin, there isn't any reason to keep Bitcoin.
I don't think that people need to spend their crypto currency, but in order to want to hold their crypto currency, they need to have the ability to spend it when they want to. If it isn't spendable, there isn't any reason to hold it.
Sandy：如果你認為比特幣是一種股權（經典的價值儲存），那麼想要擁有它的人越多，它獲得的價值越高，這是對的嗎？
If you think of Bitcoin as an equity (classic store of value), then the more people wanting to hold it, the more value it gains, is that correct？
Roger：我們再來說一下關於審查的話題，它對人們的影響是驚人的，我在下面這個連結講得很清楚了。不過由於中國的審查制度很嚴，可能很難看到這個影片。
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caUDXLqpdYc
人們想要持有比特幣的最佳方式是讓他們知道他們可以在任何地方可用比特幣消費。人們都希望持有美元或人民幣的原因是因為他們可以用這些貨幣在任何地方消費。如果美元、人民幣或韓元沒有其支付消費的意義，將沒有人願意持有它們。
On the censorship topic again, the effect that it has on people is stunning, due to censorship in China, it may be hard to view this video, but I think I did a good job explaining it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caUDXLqpdYc
The best way for people to want to hold Bitcoin is if they know that they can spend it everywhere. The reason everyone wants to hold USD, or CNY is because they can spend them anywhere. If USD or CNY or KRW stopped being spendable, no one would want to hold them.
Sandy：是的，這是真理！您如何看待閃電網路（Lightning）作為一種潛在的解決方案？
Yup, that is very true. What do you think of LIghtning as a potential solution?
Roger：全世界有7,935名閃電網路使用者。Bitcoin.com在一天內為更多新的比特幣現金使用者做廣告。我希望閃電網路（LN）能好運，但我並不感興趣，因為它還沒有實現商業價值。當然也許有一天會改變。
There are 7,935 lightning users in the entire world. Bitcoin.com adds more new Bitcoin Cash users in a single day. I wish LN good luck, but it isn't interesting to me because it isn't usable in commerce reliably. Maybe someday that will change.
Sandy：我沒有意識到，不過我認為你一定是第一批所謂的“Crypto KOL”版本，但與其他的推薦ICO或IEO的其他KOL不同，你一直執著於一種代幣？這是為什麼呢？
I didn’t realise it then, but I think you must have been the first version of the so called “Crypto KOL”, but unlike all the other KOLs who are promoting different ICOs or IEOs, you always stick to one token, why is that?
Roger：實際上，我並不知道KOL是什麼，不過我也喜歡多種多樣的代幣，並持有和推廣。目前我最喜歡BCH，因為我認為它最有可能透過實現更多的經濟自由來改善全世界大多數人的生活。我很樂意做任何努力讓人們的生活更美好。
I don’t know what a KOL is, but I like, hold, and promote lots of tokens. I currently like BCH the best because I think it has the best chance of improving the lives of the most number of people around the world by enabling more economic freedom. I'll gladly promote whatever actually works to make people's lives better.
Sandy：我認為，作為BCH的支持者，您剛說的就是BCH的首要任務嗎？我問您這個問題是因為我在研究期間發現了這張照片。
I see, as a BCH supporter, what would you say is BCH's top priority right now? I'm asking you because I found this picture during my research.
Roger：我認為這張照片做得很好。比特幣現金已經擁有了它所需要的幾乎所有東西。快速，廉價，私密，令牌和熱情的使用者群。我認為我們應該繼續關注讓更多人真正使用BCH進行實際的商業交易。
I think that photo does a good job. Bitcoin Cash already has almost all of what it needs. Fast, Cheap, Private, Tokens, and passionate user base. I think we should just continue to focus on getting more people to actually use BCH for actual commercial transactions.
我真的很喜歡BCH最近升級的隱私功能，多虧有cashshuffle.com。我們很快也會將相同的功能新增到Bitcoin.com錢包中。
I really love the recent privacy upgrade to BCH thanks to cashshuffle.com, we will be adding this same feature to the Bitcoin.com wallet soon too.
Sandy：在未來一年的時間裡，您想在哪裡看到BCH？
Where would you want to see BCH in one year's time?
Roger：我們還正專注於透過提供各種SDK來吸引更多開發人員，以便人們更輕鬆地在developer.bitcoin.com上構建BCH應用程式。我們正與日本約3,000家實體店合作。我期待他們所有人在明年的這個時候能夠接受BCH，在日本已有很多地方接受了BCH，不是BTC。
We are also focusing on attracting more developers by offering all sorts of SDKs to make it easier for people to build BCH apps at developer.bitcoin.com. We are working with a chain of about 3,000 physical shops in Japan. I look forward to all of them accepting BCH by this time next year. There are already more places in Japan accepting BCH than BTC.
Sandy：這太妙了！您可能是向新使用者解釋BCH、並向店主推廣BCH付款的最佳人選。您說的10年目標是什麼呢？推廣到100萬店？
That's fantastic! You're probably the best person to explain BCH to new comers, and promote BCH payment to shop owners. What is the goal for say 10 years. 1 million shops?
Roger：我對比特幣現金分叉的代幣也非常感興趣。來自Liberland.org的第一個代幣已在本週早些時候在交易所上市了。我們也將很快為我們的400萬Bitcoin.com錢包新增完整的BCH代幣支援。已有超過100,000個線上網站接受BCH付款。10年後，我希望看到每天出售的新手機都預裝BCH錢包。我們已經與幾家手機制造商就此進行了洽談。
I'm also very excited about the tokens being made on Bitcoin Cash. The first one from Liberland.org was just listed on an exchange earlier this week. We will also be adding full BCH token support to our 4 million Bitcoin.com wallets soon too. BCH already has over 100,000 online sites accepting it for payment. In 10 years I would like to see every new cell phone sold each day to come pre-installed with a BCH wallet. We are already in talks with several cell phone manufacturers about this.
Sandy：我認為第三世界國家的手機制造商相當分散。但是，第一世界市場由一些大公司主導。您認為如何實現BCH錢包預裝呢？
I think handset manufacturers for 3rd world countries are fairly fragmented. But first world market is dominated by some of the big players. What do you think is needed to say get Apple onboard for BCH pre installment?
Roger：由於沒有官方加密貨幣或BCH公司，就靠我們所有人訴我們的朋友和家人，並幫助他們設定錢包，讓他們開始每天使用BCH進行付款。
我認為人們會發現BCH非常有用，以至於許多國家的人們無法想象他們手機上沒有它。
大家都知道，谷歌地圖就是如此。每個人都喜歡在他們的iPhone上下載安裝地圖，最終Apple公司自己製作並將其構建到作業系統中。所以我相信一旦有足夠多的人發現BCH有用，BCH在未來會被直接安裝到手機作業系統的。
Because there is no official crypto currency or BCH company, it is up to all of us to tell our friends and families, and help them setup wallets, and to start using it for payments every day. I think we will need for BCH to be so useful for so many people in so many countries that people couldn't imagine not having it on their phone.
We saw this happen previously with google maps. Everyone loved using the maps on their iphone, so eventually Apple made their own and built it right into the OS. The same is possible for BCH in the future once enough people find it useful.
Sandy：所以Facebook Coin、JP Coin等主導市場的美國大公司都計劃進入這個領域。憑藉他們的影響力和現有使用者，您認為BCH社羣可以在同一水平上競爭嗎？
So Facebook Coin, and JP Coin all the giant US companies that dominate some segment of the market are planning on coming into this space. With their clout and existing users, do you think BCH community can compete on the same level?
Roger：我不知道，其中很大程度上取決於FacebookCoin或JPCoin的特徵。一般最有用的Coin會被最多使用。但網路效應也是其中非常重要的一部分，Facebook和摩根大通從一開始就會有很大的網路效應。
I don't know. A lot of it will depend on the characteristics of Facebook coin, or JP coin. The coin that is the most useful will be used the most, but the network effect is a very important part of that. Facebook and JP Morgan will have large network effects from the very start.
Sandy：我希望可以問這個問題。除了你的BCH相關工作以外，您以一些無政府主義者的觀點而聞名，你能否解釋一下這對BCH社羣有什麼幫助呢？
I hope this is ok to ask. Apart from your BCH work, you are known for some of your anarchist views, can you explain to me if/how that helps the BCH community?
Roger：我認為所有人類的互動應該都是自願的想法並不是極端的，一小部分人利用暴力威脅來教導其他所有人的想法是因為他們需要把自己的極端立場合理性。但是我參與到了比特幣，我是自願的，大多數其他比特幣採用者也是如此。我認為加密貨幣是一種工具，能從想要用暴力來控制別人的人手中奪走權力。如果加密貨幣沒有這種能力，我就不會對為它而著迷。
所以您覺得我的無政府主義觀點有幫助嗎？ 我認為是有的。加密貨幣如今已成為世界範圍內已成風，許多新使用者由此而接觸到了新的自願主義思想。
I think the idea that all human interactions should be voluntary isn't extreme at all. The idea that one small group of people get to use threats of violence to boss everyone else around is the extreme position that needs to be justified. I got involved in Bitcoin because I was already a voluntaryist, and so were most of the other early adopters. I see crypto currencies as a tool to take away power from people who want to use violence to control other people. If crypto currencies didn't have that ability, I wouldn't be interested in them.
So did my anarchist views help? I think they clearly did. Crypto currencies are a worldwide phenomenon today, and lots of new people have been exposed to the new ideas of voluntaryism because of that.
Sandy：這個方式很有趣！因此，BCH社羣的一些原始成員最近發起了另一個分支，叫做BSV。您對此有何看法？有人說它使得BCH運動放慢了腳步。
That's an interesting way to look at it. So some original members of the BCH community initiated another fork recently, and called it BSV. What are you views on that? It has been said that it took something away from the momentum of the BCH movement.
Roger：BCH BSV分叉確實推遲了BCH的採用，但我認為兩個陣營都可以使用他們最喜歡的Coin版本。我希望喜歡BSV能做好他們的專案，祝他們好運！但這不是我感興趣的事情。
The BCH BSV split surely did delay the adoption of BCH, but I think both camps can work on the version of a coin that they like best. I wish the BSV people good luck with their project, but it isn't something I'm interested in myself.
Sandy：Ok，我想我們只剩10分鐘的提問時間了。Roger非常坦誠地分享他對這個行業的看法，在我看來他是最好的溝通者和思想領袖之一。
Ok, I think we have only 10 minutes left with Roger. He has been super candid in sharing his views on the industry, and still one of the best communicator and thought leader in my opinion.
I have prepare some quick fire questions for Roger: 1. What is your idea of a BCH killer Dapp?
Roger：現金！ 代幣也很酷。
killer Dapp是點對點電子現金。我們已經知道這一點，因為這是比特幣起始的原因。
Cash!Tokens are pretty cool too.
The killer Dapp is peer to peer electronic cash. We already know this since it is what got Bitcoin started to begin with.
Sandy：在這個領域，您最尊敬的人是誰？
Who is person that you most respect in this industry?
Roger：是中本聰，因為他發明了這項我們所有人都能從中受益的驚人技術。
另外，我認為我非常欣賞Bitpay（一家全球性的比特幣支付服務提供者）的創始人，因為他們能夠使用加密貨幣進行如此多的商業活動。
I think I respect Satoshi the most for inventing this amazing technology that we all get to benefit from.
For people who's real identity is known, I think I appreciate the Bitpay founders the most for enabling so much commerce to take place using crypto currencies.
Sandy：作為早期的接受者，您認為到現在這個過程中您獲得的最有價值的東西是什麼？
As an early adopter, what would you say is the most valuable lesson you took from this journey?
Roger：Stephan和Tony也是非常早期的比特幣接受者，他們做了非常棒的工作，讓大商家們開始接受比特幣。我學到的最有價值的東西就是不要低估審查制度對塑造公眾輿論的角色。比特幣社羣內正在進行的審查對社群使用者產生了巨大影響。
Stephan and Tony are their names. They were super early too, and did an amazing job getting large merchants to start accepting bitcoin. The most valuable lesson I've learned would be to not underestimate the effectiveness of censorship upon shaping public opinion. The ongoing censorship within the Bitcoin community has had a giant effect on people's views.
Sandy：讓商家們接受比特幣是很難的！我嘗試了多次都以失敗而告終。如果讓您給我一條推銷的路線，這條路線會是什麼？
Getting merchants to accept bitcoin is HARD! I tried a failed many times. If you can give me a sales line to regurgitate, what would that line be?
Roger：我認為在西方使用像Bitpay這樣的服務更容易。它們允許商家即時接受來自任何人的付款，沒有退款或支付欺詐的風險，甚至這可以比信用卡便宜很多。我對local.bitcoin.com也非常興奮，我們也將很快推出。它將使世界各地的人們能夠沒有限制的相互交易。
I think it was easier in the west with services like Bitpay. They allow merchants to accept payments from anyone, anywhere, instantly, with no risk of charge backs or payment fraud, and can do it much cheaper than credit cards.
I'm also super excited about local.bitcoin.com that we will be launching soon too. It will enable people all over the world to permissionlessly trade with each other.
Sandy：最後一個問題：現在您所在的這個社群成員全都是女性。所以您能說出一個您所尊重的女性區塊鏈企業家嗎？會有更多的年輕女性參與這個行業嗎？
My last question: because we are in an all female blockchain chat group. Can you name a female blockchain entrepreneur you respect, and what would you say to get more young women involved in the industry?
Roger：當然，我很欣賞Sandy和Vivian能夠開加密貨幣交易所，我是她們的粉絲、Star和琪亞娜（Kiana）。
Of course I appreciate Sandy and Vivian for setting this up, and I'm also a fan or Star and Kiana for setting up crypto exchanges.
Sandy：Roger，我還有一個問題。未來您有計劃把業務擴充套件到韓國嗎？今年在韓國推介BCH？
And Roger I have a question. Is there any future plan expand to Korea? Adoption of BCH for Korea this year?
Roger：我非常非常喜歡韓國，希望能在韓國過一段時間，並幫助推動BCH的商用。我非常感謝這個群裡所有韓國朋友的幫助。如果有人還沒有BCH，只需安裝Bitcoin.com錢包和DM或給我傳送你的BCH地址，我會嘗試給你轉過去的。（[email protected]）
I enjoy Korea very very very much and would love to spend more time there and help drive more BCH adoption there. I'd also love the help of all the Koreans in this group too. If anyone doesn't have any BCH yet, just install the Bitcoin.com wallet and DM or email me your BCH address and I will send you some to try. [email protected]
Sandy：我覺得市場會再次迎來一個井噴期，您覺得呢？
And nowadays there is market rise up suddenly, what do you think about it?
Roger：我認為商用化會不斷提高加密貨幣的價格，目前我正致力於實現更多的商用化。
I think adoption in commerce drives the price higher and higher, so I'm focusing on creating more adoption in commerce.
Sandy：太棒了！非常感謝您今天參加我們的採訪。
Awesome:) Thank you so much for your time Roger!
